Baptism (a few kinds)

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:09 pm

Please be careful of your "tone" in this discussion and of other's beliefs. To disagree is fine, but to attack is not in the spirit of love and gentleness.

I am moving this topic to debate and if there are any further problems I will lock this thread, so please be considerate!

_________________
~Stay at home wife to Timothy ~10/07~ and Mommy to Tirzah ~12/31/08~

Adoptive Mommy to:
*BurntIre*
Linz

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:56 pm

I don't believe the Bible says you have to be baptized to be saved.
What happens if there is a man who lives in the jungle and he decides to get saved. He repents and asks Jesus into his heart, and while he's walking through the jungle to the pond to be baptized, he's attacked by a tiger and killed. Does he therefore go to hell because he wasn't baptized?
Also, being dunked in water is a physical process. How can that redeem your soul? Does the Bible teach that Christ's death and a good soaking get you to Heaven, or just Christ's death? Would you say that Jesus' death paid for most of it, but you have to take the last step in your salvation and get dunked? Christ can do most of it but it's up to you to finish it? When He died, He said "It is finished." He didn't say "It is finished, but don't forget to get into the lake."

Number of posts: 125 Registration date: 2009-09-16

Waltzing Rapunzel wrote:

I have enlisted my docter daddys help on this!

Applesofgold wrote:

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

This doesn't say we also have to be baptized with water to be saved. All I have to do is confess with my mouth and believe in my heart, and I am saved, and I will go to heaven.

Quote:

BAPTISM " There is now also a antitype which now saves us, namely baptism..." I Peter 3:21

I believe this is talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit. If someone is on their death bed, and a person tells them of the gospel, and they put their trust in Jesus and believe in him, would you say they weren't saved? I think that even though they weren't baptized with water, they are still saved.

Honey, it really doesn't matter what you think. Sorry to be rude, but the Bible is over all!
[/b]

I said "I believe" because I didn't want to imply that I know everything in the world. I'm sorry you misinterpreted it.

_________________
~A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. Proverbs 25:11

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:52 am

Waltzing Rapunzel wrote:

1 Peter 3:21 tells us what saves us. And that is baptism. It is not the ONLY thing that saves us, we are also saved by faith. But it still saves us.

Ok, I'm sorry, but the point of this verse was completely missed! I really think Applesofgold is correct on this one. Let me post the whole verse so that we're doing a little less of this ugly thing called proof texting! (I know, I know - we all do it, me included, but is it really all that effective? Probably not. These verses have to be taken in the context of the author's purpose. But I think if we just look at this whole verse, that will sufice.)

1 Peter 3:21 NASB "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Well, first of all "corresponding" to what? Context is key. We've just kinda been dropped in the middle of an idea. Let's go back to v. 18 (v. 19-20 are irrelevant to this particular conversation - author takes a brief rabbit trail for a moment)

v. 18 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit"

Ok, so we KNOW that this DOES pertain to salvation. But I think Peter clearly defines of WHAT baptism he is speaking: "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." Um, we aren't talking about a bath, here! And Peter even clarifies that. The baptism = an appeal to God for a good conscience. It's a baptism of the heart. God is cleansing the heart. It's a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not a baptism of the outer body. Not a baptism of water. Not a physical baptism. Not a "removal of dirt from the flesh." It's a spiritual baptism.

Side Note: the NIV might be a little confusing when interpreting this verse. The NIV makes a strong comparison between v. 20 and v. 21, a very good comparison, but it looses some clarity that a "word for word" translation such as NASB and KJV provides.

As for Ephesians 4:5, once again - proof texting! I think if one considers the context, it becomes clear that Paul is not talking about a water baptism. If he was, then in order to stay consistent, he must also be speaking of one LITERAL body in the previous verse, which he is not. He is talking about the unity of the Spirit that we believers have. A literal water baptism is NOT what creates unity among us. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is what creates unity.

I don't mean to be harsh about the proof texting thing, because I can be the worst offender. But it is dangerous and not very effective. I think others have shown how effective it can be to use a verse within its context, both literary context and historical context. You just get a better interpretation when you do that. In the two examples above, I've tried to show how one interpretation doesn't work within the whole context of the passage. I'm not sure if I was very effective, but I tried. I think that's what's difficult about "debate" or "discussion" is that people always proof text without showing why THEIR interpretation of the verse is more solid or "best", for lack of a better word. I personally learn more when I have to defend my interpretation and when I read other's process of interpretation. This gives me the chance to either go back and realize "hey, I really don't have a good reason for what I believe" or "oops, I think this person's interpretation contradicts itself at this point."

I appologize for the mini-rant and for the length of this post, but my big pet peeve is when people believe something but can't truly explain why. Please show me your WHY and I'll try to show you why my WHY is better! lol Wink

_________________
“The contentment of a Christian Hedonist is not a Buddha-like serenity, unmoved by the hurts of others. It is a profoundly dissatisfied contentment. It is constantly hungry for more of the feast of God’s grace.” – John Piper

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:03 am

I agree, Musicgirl. Smile

Context is very important.

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:18 pm

Julie Su wrote:

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved, though faith and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.

NOT OF WORKS. Batism is a work.

You are EXACTLY RIGHT that we are saved by faith and not by works. And yet, James 2...
²¹Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²²You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. ²³And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"^[a] and he was called God's friend. ²⁴You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
²⁵In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? ²⁶As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

How can it be that Eph. says we are saved by faith and James says we are saved by works, as James explained we are saved by faith, but not faith alone, saved by works but not works alone.

We are not saved by works alone!!!!!

An analogy... TO make a campfire requires wood, but not wood alone, it requires oxygen, but not oxygen alone. One without the other is dead.

The ONLY place in the entire Bible that the phrase " faith alone" occures is in James 2:24, and it says NOT by faith alone!!!!

Quote:

Ok, I'm sorry, but the point of this verse was completely missed! I really think Applesofgold is correct on this one. Let me post the whole verse so that we're doing a little less of this ugly thing called proof texting! (I know, I know - we all do it, me included, but is it really all that effective? Probably not. These verses have to be taken in the context of the author's purpose. But I think if we just look at this whole verse, that will sufice.)

1 Peter 3:21 NASB "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Well, first of all "corresponding" to what? Context is key. We've just kinda been dropped in the middle of an idea. Let's go back to v. 18 (v. 19-20 are irrelevant to this particular conversation - author takes a brief rabbit trail for a moment)

v. 18 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit"

Ok, so we KNOW that this DOES pertain to salvation. But I think Peter clearly defines of WHAT baptism he is speaking: "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." Um, we aren't talking about a bath, here! And Peter even clarifies that. The baptism = an appeal to God for a good conscience. It's a baptism of the heart. God is cleansing the heart. It's a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not a baptism of the outer body. Not a baptism of water. Not a physical baptism. Not a "removal of dirt from the flesh." It's a spiritual baptism.

Side Note: the NIV might be a little confusing when interpreting this verse. The NIV makes a strong comparison between v. 20 and v. 21, a very good comparison, but it looses some clarity that a "word for word" translation such as NASB and KJV provides.

As for Ephesians 4:5, once again - proof texting! I think if one considers the context, it becomes clear that Paul is not talking about a water baptism. If he was, then in order to stay consistent, he must also be speaking of one LITERAL body in the previous verse, which he is not. He is talking about the unity of the Spirit that we believers have. A literal water baptism is NOT what creates unity among us. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is what creates unity.

I don't mean to be harsh about the proof texting thing, because I can be the worst offender. But it is dangerous and not very effective. I think others have shown how effective it can be to use a verse within its context, both literary context and historical context. You just get a better interpretation when you do that. In the two examples above, I've tried to show how one interpretation doesn't work within the whole context of the passage. I'm not sure if I was very effective, but I tried. I think that's what's difficult about "debate" or "discussion" is that people always proof text without showing why THEIR interpretation of the verse is more solid or "best", for lack of a better word. I personally learn more when I have to defend my interpretation and when I read other's process of interpretation. This gives me the chance to either go back and realize "hey, I really don't have a good reason for what I believe" or "oops, I think this person's interpretation contradicts itself at this point."

I appologize for the mini-rant and for the length of this post, but my big pet peeve is when people believe something but can't truly explain why. Please show me your WHY and I'll try to show you why my WHY is better! lol

I agree with you, context is absolutly key, and the thought begins in verse 18, showing this is talking about salvation. Vs. 20 and 21 DO show what kind of baptism this is talking about, the comparison is between the waters of The Flood that seperated Noah and his family from the sins of the pre-flood world, and baptism.

And, lest anyone think the waters of baptism phisically removed sins, Peter explained HOW the waters of baptism removed sin. Not by washing away dirt, but as a obedient appeal to God, obeying his commands, such as Acts 2: 38.

Consider Naaman. 2 Kings 5: 1-14. How was Naaman healed?? He was healed by Gods grace. When was he healed? By Gods grace. Once He obeyed GOD.

Quote:

I don't believe the Bible says you have to be baptized to be saved.
What happens if there is a man who lives in the jungle and he decides to get saved. He repents and asks Jesus into his heart, and while he's walking through the jungle to the pond to be baptized, he's attacked by a tiger and killed. Does he therefore go to hell because he wasn't baptized?
Also, being dunked in water is a physical process. How can that redeem your soul? Does the Bible teach that Christ's death and a good soaking get you to Heaven, or just Christ's death? Would you say that Jesus' death paid for most of it, but you have to take the last step in your salvation and get dunked? Christ can do most of it but it's up to you to finish it? When He died, He said "It is finished." He didn't say "It is finished, but don't forget to get into the lake."

No. Christ's death payed for all of it, but you have to believe, Mk. 16:16. Christ's death payed for all of it, but you have to repent. ( Acts 2:38) Christs death payed for all of it, but you have to confess his name, Romans 10: 9, 10. Christ's death payed for all of it, but a man is justifyed by works, James 2:24. Christ's death payed for all of it, but we must be baptized, Acts. 2:38, Mk. 16:16.

*Oh friends, please, do, do, DO, listen. This isn't my opinion at all, it's what the Bible teaches!! I don't like to make waves, but I think I am supposed to right now! Please, I am not saying this in a "greater then thou"... it's that I love you all, even though I have not been on long.!

*

_________________

I am a farmgirl with a mission... to get my chores done before it's dark... ahem!

You are most like Peter Pevensie, once High King of Narnia. As Peter, you are brave, loyal yet intelligent, and are greatly respected for upholding what you think is right.

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:28 pm

I don't think James says that works save you. It says that your works show that you have faith. If you are a Christian, then you will be doing good works, but it doesn't say that you cannot be saved if you don't do good works. A man who is not saved cannot do good works. (uh oh, another can of worms!) Hide

Where in the Bible does it say "you cannot be saved unless you do good works?"

I do want to listen to you, but I don't believe the Bible teaches that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:44 pm

RebeccaMc wrote:

I don't think James says that works save you. It says that your works show that you have faith. If you are a Christian, then you will be doing good works, but it doesn't say that you cannot be saved if you don't do good works. A man who is not saved cannot do good works.

Did you mean that last sentence? I believe you can do good works even if you're not saved. I know lots of people who aren't Christians but still are "good" people and do good things.

_________________

Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new - Albert Einstein

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:48 pm

Well, man cannot do things that are good in the sight of God. He can do morally good things, but his heart is not in the right place. In Proverbs, it says that even the plowing of the wicked is sin. The unsaved man may be doing a good thing, but in the sight of God, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)
If the unsaved man cannot do anything that God sees as good, then he cannot do any good thing that would bring, to himself, salvation.

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:49 pm

That's a whole debate in and of itself. If we want to "fight it out" further, we might want to start a different thread so this one can stay on topic. Smile

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:50 pm

RebeccaMc wrote:

Well, man cannot do things that are good in the sight of God. He can do morally good things, but his heart is not in the right place. In Proverbs, it says that even the plowing of the wicked is sin. The unsaved man may be doing a good thing, but in the sight of God, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)
If the unsaved man cannot do anything that God sees as good, then he cannot do any good thing that would bring, to himself, salvation.

Oh, thank you for clarifying, I agree.

_________________

Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new - Albert Einstein

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:42 pm

Waltzing Rapunzel wrote:

How can it be that Eph. says we are saved by faith and James says we are saved by works, as James explained we are saved by faith, but not faith alone, saved by works but not works alone.

Well, that's easy. James never says we are SAVED by works. He says that faith without works is DEAD. I'll show you my faith WITH works; you try to show me faith WITHOUT works. The latter is an impossibility. Saving faith will naturally produce the fruit. Without the fruit, there's no evidence of salvation. That's not to say that the WORKS save us. That's simply to say that a lack of fruit is evidence of lack of sincere faith/salvation.

As for the examples James uses.....have you considered that Paul and James may be using the words "justification" and "righteousness" in slightly different manners? Paul definitely uses "justification" as refering to salvation. James - not so much. I don't know how to explain this very well, but James isn't really implying that the works justify in a salvation sort of way. Like with Abraham - God didn't saved Abraham BECAUSE of his works. The works proved Abraham a righteous man. And with Rahab, it's not that the works justified her in a salvation sort of way - Rahab was proven justified by the work.

Evidence. Proof. Fruit. Assurance. Whatever you want to call it - this is more what James is after.

Also, another thought to consider. There are two "types" of salvation. There is the initial salvation by grace through faith that we recieve as a gift because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection. There is also the concept of "being saved", which actually refers to the idea of sanctification. We are commanded to "be Holy for I AM holy." This is where the works come into play. A Christian can't be saved (the first type) without being saved (the second type). But the "being saved" doesn't cause the initial salvation to happen. The initial salvation causes the "being saved" to happen. Make sense? I know - I'm playing around with words a little bit, so it might be confusing. Let me put it this way: I don't think baptism has anything to do with the initial salvation, but it is a step in the "being saved" category (I say this loosly, however).

Waltzing Rapunzel wrote:

*Oh friends, please, do, do, DO, listen. This isn't my opinion at all, it's what the Bible teaches!! I don't like to make waves, but I think I am supposed to right now! Please, I am not saying this in a "greater then thou"... it's that I love you all, even though I have not been on long.!

*

Well, just know that you're not going to convince some of us - and we aren't going to convice you either! And that's ok. The point of this is NOT to change each other's opinions. I, for one, already have a strong conviction on this subject. So do you. We're here to discuss and learn from each other and figure out why we believe what we believe. Besides, why does it really matter? I've been baptized. It's not like my salvation is resting on whether or not I've performed this work - because 1) I don't believe it has anything to do with my salvation and 2) I've performed the work that you deem necessary for salvation. So, in both our opinions, I'm covered. Smile

Normally I'd say, "Let's major on the majors, and minor on the minors", but that doesn't really work in this case because you seem to think this is a major (and I actually think it's kinda major, but for the opposite reasons! Wink

). So, maybe we'll just have to go with an "agree to disagree" attitude and simply enjoy the discussion.

By the way, what's your denominational background? Just curious. That might help me know where you're coming from on this!

_________________
“The contentment of a Christian Hedonist is not a Buddha-like serenity, unmoved by the hurts of others. It is a profoundly dissatisfied contentment. It is constantly hungry for more of the feast of God’s grace.” – John Piper

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:54 pm

Musicgirl... wrote:

Waltzing Rapunzel wrote:

How can it be that Eph. says we are saved by faith and James says we are saved by works, as James explained we are saved by faith, but not faith alone, saved by works but not works alone.

Well, that's easy. James never says we are SAVED by works. He says that faith without works is DEAD. I'll show you my faith WITH works; you try to show me faith WITHOUT works. The latter is an impossibility. Saving faith will naturally produce the fruit. Without the fruit, there's no evidence of salvation. That's not to say that the WORKS save us. That's simply to say that a lack of fruit is evidence of lack of sincere faith/salvation.

You beat me to it. Amen!

Musicgirl... wrote:

Waltzing Rapunzel wrote:

*Oh friends, please, do, do, DO, listen. This isn't my opinion at all, it's what the Bible teaches!! I don't like to make waves, but I think I am supposed to right now! Please, I am not saying this in a "greater then thou"... it's that I love you all, even though I have not been on long.!

*

Well, just know that you're not going to convince some of us - and we aren't going to convice you either! And that's ok. The point of this is NOT to change each other's opinions. I, for one, already have a strong conviction on this subject. So do you. We're here to discuss and learn from each other and figure out why we believe what we believe. Besides, why does it really matter? I've been baptized. It's not like my salvation is resting on whether or not I've performed this work - because 1) I don't believe it has anything to do with my salvation and 2) I've performed the work that you deem necessary for salvation. So, in both our opinions, I'm covered. Smile

Lol, exactly.

_________________
Happy mummy!

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:28 am

Before this continues, just a reminder to people to read the debate rules.

_________________
*Larissa*

It may not be your day, but it may be your moment

Subject: Re: Baptism (a few kinds) Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:03 pm

Did this thread start out as a debate? If not, that could be why debate rules aren't being followed as closely.